Vojna tretjega sveta

[Enrico Pallazo]

19. februar 2022 uredilo bitje Sovica

[nekdo]

Rusija je v marsikakem pogledu še zadnji evrospki kolonjalni imperij, samo da so zaradi kopenskih povezav kolonije postale del države. Se pa tam za razliko od z. evrope ne ukvarjajo z zgodovinsko krivdo, bi pa v primeru, da stvar prepustijo toku čečenija verjetno ne bila zadnja domina. S tem da je čečensko vojno začel že jelcin in ne putin. 

[MikeHunt]

kokr tolk realisticno pove model

 

LP

 

 

[Kruz]

Spomni so se tolk kot so se 2003 spomnili na iraske wmd

 

Samm entertard gona tardirard. Pejt se prijavit v Azov pa leti s pusko nad ruskega barbara, ostale pa pust pr miru

[Demogorgon]

Meni je res fascinantno ko kdo označi Sovjetsko zvezo kot good guye v drugi svetovni vojni . Verjetno imate lokalni komunajzarji amnezijo in pozabljate, da je bil Stallin še kako pripravljen sodelovati z nacistično Nemčijo pri okupaciji Evrope.

[maksi]

Demogorgon reče pred 7 minutami:

 Verjetno imate lokalni komunajzarji amnezijo in pozabljate, da je bil Stallin še kako pripravljen sodelovati z nacistično Nemčijo pri okupaciji Evrope.

saj so tudi zahodni zavezniki, kdo je dal Sudete Nemčiji, kdo je kreditiral oboroževanje Nemčije

19. februar 2022 uredilo bitje maksi

[MikeHunt]

Demogorgon reče pred 9 minutami:

Meni je res fascinantno ko kdo označi Sovjetsko zvezo kot good guye v drugi svetovni vojni . Verjetno imate lokalni komunajzarji amnezijo in pozabljate, da je bil Stallin še kako pripravljen sodelovati z nacistično Nemčijo pri okupaciji Evrope.

 

lol 

 

 

 

nije bilo PEČATA

 

LP

[Enterprise]

AdamSmit reče pred 23 minutami:

Spomni so se tolk kot so se 2003 spomnili na iraske wmd

 

Samm entertard gona tardirard. Pejt se prijavit v Azov pa leti s pusko nad ruskega barbara, ostale pa pust pr miru

hej debilko, s cim sem ti stopil na prst? mislim ce si uzaljen da nekdo pokaze kako rusi in samozvani separatisti ob belem dnevu producirajo cheap dezinformacije in propagando, pol lahko recem samo get help

[maksi]

Enterprise reče pred 1 minuto:

hej debilko, s cim sem ti stopil na prst? mislim ce si uzaljen da nekdo pokaze kako rusi in samozvani separatisti ob belem dnevu producirajo cheap dezinformacije in propagando, pol lahko recem samo get help

problem v tebi je, da misliš da tvoja (ameriška oz. prozahodna) tega ne počne

[Enterprise]

maksi reče pred 2 minutama:

problem v tebi je, da misliš da tvoja (ameriška oz. prozahodna) tega ne počne

 

ok maksi, dej mi nastej par teh obvious propagand

 

ker ce bos zdej zabil "ja hurr durr biden trdi da bodo invejdal, without PROOFFS WHERE IS MY PROOFS":

Enterprise reče pred 3 urami:

ja, samo ne implicirat da so se "nasi" mediji to spomnili brez razloga lol.

ko imajo enkrat toliko vojske ob ukrajinskih mejah - toliko vec kot kdajkoli prej v zgodovini post-soviet rusije, in to vkljucno na krimu in v belorusiji, bistveno vec kot jih je bilo na vajah (in to so javno dostopni podatki ki jih sicer sploh noben ne skriva)

ko je v crnem morju najvec mornarice po padcu sz

ko se zacne zaostrovat retorika zoper "sovrazno ukrajino" ki da namerava napast donbas

ko se zacnejo sem pa tja na veliko metat cheap (ampak dobre za povprecnega bralca spletnih cajtungov) fake newsi tipa poljski saboterji napadli to, nato spijuni nastavili biolosko orozje v donetsku

se zacne preiskovat "genocid" nad rusi v donbasu

ko redefinirajo kaj za njih pomeni samoobramba

ko so ruski mediji 24/7 polni hypanja zoper agresorsko ukrajino, v studiih razpravljajo o tem kako je treba razresit ta problem (seveda ne diplomatsko lol)

 

in se to samo se stopnjuje do te mere da so zdaj *oni* prepricani da bodo ukrajinci naredili invazijo (super timing, Ukrajina)

 

je mende ocitno kam pes taco moli. v najboljsem primeru putin na veliko trola zahod in ustrahuje in mal poslata response Bidna in podobnih

v najslabsem primeru bodo pac nasli ukrajinsko invazijo in se obranili

 

(pa to govorim samo iz vidika tega, kar je vidno in prosto dostopno, ignoriram to da so obvescevalne agencije od ameriske, UK, francije, norveske, estonske itd. vse na isti strani da se nekaj v kremlju ocitno planira)

 

 

jaz samo upam da se bodo "nasi mediji" "zblamirali" in ne bo nic, in bo putin odsel kot "moralni" in "diplomatski" zmagovalec, pac za svojo publiko

 

 

nisem videl nekih specificnih fake trditev, razen ce pac privzames da so vsi cyber napadi sfejkani znotraj, pa da je ves footage o ruski mobilizaciji (in manjko footaga da bi se kaj umaknilo) fake, pol okej, ampak ne vidim kje bi bilo tako ocitno fejkano

[Kruz]

Enterprise reče pred 7 minutami:

hej debilko, s cim sem ti stopil na prst? mislim ce si uzaljen da nekdo pokaze kako rusi in samozvani separatisti ob belem dnevu producirajo cheap dezinformacije in propagando, pol lahko recem samo get help

Ti paničariš pred namišljeno vojno grožnjo z namenom, da se sprovocira dejanska vojna. Ne vem kdo tle rabi pomoč. Po mojem folk, ki sledi CIA propagandi in hoče, da se začnejo ljudje pobijat med sabo, da demokrati mal manj spušijo volitve.

19. februar 2022 uredilo bitje AdamSmit

[Enterprise]

AdamSmit reče pred 6 minutami:

Ti paničariš pred namišljeno vojno grožnjo z namenom, da se sprovocira dejanska vojna. Ne vem kdo tle rabi pomoč. Po mojem folk, ki sledi CIA propagandi in hoče, da se začnejo ljudje pobijat med sabo for no reason.

 

zdej ce si debil potem to tako vidis, ja.

sprovocira dejanska vojna, mislim kako neumen moras bit da to trdis iz vidika, da bodo nacisticni ukrajinci invejdal donbas, medtem ko so v 20km pasu okoli meje, vkljucno s krimom in belorusijo, mobilizirane enote vecine rusije, cesar nisi sami rusi ne zanikajo (razen da so "nekaj umaknili")

 

ja, ukrajinci bodo invejdal, pa bodo s par stingerji in javelini naredili stratesko prednost v nevemcem lol.

 

zdej ce nisi res res neumen, potem ti je jasno, da "provociranje dejanske vojne" iz ukrajinske strani pomeni, da se ta mobilizirana napadalna formacija ukrajincev v blizini donbasa ekspresno hitro spremeni v karnazo, desetkrat vecjo kot 2015 v Debaltseve ko so rusi z artilerijo iz rusije potamanili ukrajince malo preden bi ti imeli dva zepa "upornikov" konkretno obkoljenega in obrnili situacijo v par dneh. dej ce zahodu ocitas neke zajebane plane o dominaciji rusije, bodi vsaj malo bolj ustvarjalen v tem kako bodo to dosegli v tej trenutn situaciji lol

19. februar 2022 uredilo bitje Enterprise

[MikeHunt]

glej, ce rusi kej dostavljajo so to samo defensive weapons,

 

tko, da je konec koncu cist on par

 

zdaj majo ukrajinci tud turske drone, na zalost ne bodo sli proti 95' armenski vojski v akcijo

 

LP

[nekdo]

Rusi v ukrajino dostavljajo tanke, večcevne raketomete, protiletalske sisteme, tisti buk ki je sestrelil civilno letalo je bi baje direktno iz rusije z rusko posadko,.. ukrajina je dobila par raket kratkehga dometa in protitankovskih sistemov.

Akcijo rabi predvsem putin, ker bo drugače izpadel poraženec. Sploh po silnih ultimatih zahodu.

 

Sicer pa je danes stalin v rusiji spet junak.

19. februar 2022 uredilo bitje nekdo

[MikeHunt]

Buk je defenzivno orozje prijatelj...

 

kar ne vem ce lahko recemo za TB2.

 

 

Drugače pa maš v Rusiji Stalin kipe vglavnem ob meji z Gruzijo, saj veš ker je bil Gruzijec in ga častijo bolj v tistem predelu, razni Gruzijci in kavkaške etnične skupine.

 

 

LP

 

 

[nekdo]

Vladimir Putin’s Russia is rehabilitating Stalin. We must not let it happen | Irina Sherbakova | The Guardian

 

 

[Kruz]

Stalina so rehabilitirali že arhivi, ki so jih odprli po 1991 lmao.

[MikeHunt]

nekdo reče pred 7 minutami:

Vladimir Putin’s Russia is rehabilitating Stalin. We must not let it happen | Irina Sherbakova | The Guardian

 

 

 

to ni dejstvo ampak opinion peace  

 

oh brother, še dobr, da ne živi v kanadi, bi mela zamrznjen bančni račun

 

LP

[Brdavs]

lol pravkar zna prit do preureditve povojne varnostne strukture kontinenta eni se pa pričkate glede zgodovinske vloge stalina

 

mislim who gives a fuck komu rusi ali kdorkoli drug postavlja spomenike v tem kontekstu, razen guardianu

 

Enterprise reče pred 43 minutami:

sprovocira dejanska vojna, mislim kako neumen moras bit da to trdis iz vidika, da bodo nacisticni ukrajinci invejdal donbas, medtem ko so v 20km pasu okoli meje, vkljucno s krimom in belorusijo, mobilizirane enote vecine rusije, cesar nisi sami rusi ne zanikajo (razen da so "nekaj umaknili")

 

 

tako pro ruski separatisti kot skrajno desne milice, katerih ne moskva in ne washington/kijev ne kontrolirajo 100%, imajo določen interes v eskalaciji. Prvi bi s provokacijo na svoj mlin dobili intervencijo rusije, slednji pa če že ne pravo pa vsaj mednarodno gospodarsko vojno zoper RF.

 

Kdor si misli da ve kaj točno dogaja pod vsem tem fog of war pije koolaid

[nekdo]

MikeHunt reče pred 6 minutami:

 

to ni dejstvo ampak opinion peace  

 

oh brother, še dobr, da ne živi v kanadi, bi mela zamrznjen bančni račun

 

LP

Ne gre se samo za opinion, ampak je putin kar fan stalina. Nenazadnje je rusija postala največja ravno pod njim. Po drugi strani pa je iz tega vidika gorbačov vse to zapravil. Dejstva v tem kontekstu niti ne igrajo vloge.  

[Kruz]

 

[Kruz]

S kom stoji enterprize:

 

Navedek

The British Foreign Secretary Liz Truss told the Russian foreign minister that Britain would never accept Russian sovereignty over Rostov and Voronezh – until it was pointed out to her that these places were not part of Ukraine but in Russia.

 

 

[Enrico Pallazo]

k že o kipih ki triggajo guardian

 

[nekdo]

AdamSmit reče pred 47 minutami:

S kom stoji enterprize:

 

 

 

Ko blekne podobno neumnost tov pitin je ruska propagande seveda tiho. Drugače pa nekaj kar je do danes očitno ponovil cisto vsak ruski trol.

[ana]

AdamSmit reče pred 4 urami:

Ti paničariš pred namišljeno vojno grožnjo z namenom, da se sprovocira dejanska vojna. Ne vem kdo tle rabi pomoč. Po mojem folk, ki sledi CIA propagandi in hoče, da se začnejo ljudje pobijat med sabo, da demokrati mal manj spušijo volitve.

Ti pa mora biti sila všeč ruski divji kapitalizem in imperalizem, da zagovarjas njihovo kopicenje vojakov na ukrajinskih mejah in drugo okoli Evrope. 

 

In mimogrede vse linke brez vira vedno oznacim za zavajanje. 

19. februar 2022 uredilo bitje ana

[Kruz]

[ana]

To je veliko bolj uravnotezen komentar kot blodnje Adama Smitha in podobnih. Članek je placljiv, ampak dvomim, da jim bom tu odzirala naročnike zato ga lepim v celoti.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-putin-bad-and-nato-expans

Fintan O’Toole: Putin bad and Nato expansion good is not a binary we have to accept

Subscriber only

Nato’s eastward expansion broke the West’s promises and played on Russia’s fears

about 10 hours ago

Fintan O'Toole

 

 

 280

 

 

 

 

One of the things that complicates life is that those who are not malign may not be entirely benign either. This is true even of the unfolding crisis over Russia’s implicit threat to invade Ukraine.

And it is the existence of these grey areas that makes Ireland’s military neutrality entirely legitimate. Complication, to adapt what Hugh says in Brian Friel’s Translations, “is not an ignoble condition”.

There is no ambiguity about the malignity of Vladimir Putin. He is a murderous kleptocrat bent on the destruction of democracy in Europe and America.

One incident alone – for him a relatively minor affair – encapsulates his thuggery. In March 2018 Putin launched a chemical weapons attack, using one of the most toxic substances on Earth, the nerve agent Novichok, on a small city in England, Salisbury.

The immediate target was a Russian defector, Sergei Skripal, and his daughter Yulia. But they could have been killed in a hundred quiet ways, all of which Putin, as a professional KGB agent, probably knows. Novichok was used instead because it could have killed hundreds or even thousands of innocent people. That was Putin’s message: I can do this any time I like in any of your cities. Best to stay out of my way.

His main aim is to re-create as much of the lost Soviet empire as he can by intimidating and destabilising the former republics that gained their independence when it broke up in 1991.

These thuggish shapes are being thrown, not just at Ukraine, but at small countries to which Ireland is closely allied in the European Union: Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. There can be no room for doubt about Ireland’s support for them – even if we did not have our own history of having to assert ourselves against a bigger imperial neighbour.

 

But Putin being the bad guy does not make the West blameless. There are very good reasons to question the wisdom of the eastward expansion of Nato since the fall of the Soviet Union to which Putin so vehemently objects. Just because Putin is despicable does not mean that he may not, in this, have a point.

Two big truths must be acknowledged. Russia is paranoid about being invaded from the west. And this fear has rational roots in horrific experience.

Russia’s modern sense of nationality was shaped by Napoleon’s cataclysmic invasion in 1812. It is not accidental that its great national epic, Tolstoy’s War and Peace, is set during that conflagration.

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This horror was renewed and redoubled by Hitler’s invasion in 1941. Its scale is scarcely comprehensible. The death toll remains literally incalculable – respectable estimates range between 20 and 30 million dead.

To take just one sliver of this barbarism, the number of Soviet military prisoners murdered by the Nazis after being captured was roughly equivalent to the entire population of Ireland at the time.

 There is a profound level at which we in the West just don’t get this collective trauma. Look at an American movie or documentary series, and the second World War was fought and won by Americans. The British equivalent is all Churchill and Spitfires and “standing alone” against the Nazis.

But if you’re Russian, there is a real sense that what you would call the Great Patriotic War ended, not in 1945, but much more recently, in 1994. That is when the last Russian troops pulled out of a reunified Germany.

As they were departing, then Russian president Boris Yeltsin told them that they could return home in the knowledge that “for Russia, a military threat will never again rise from German soil”. Only the slightest acquaintance with history is needed to understand why that reassurance was necessary.

 

Here, though, we have the core of the problem: what assurances were the Russians given to persuade them to agree to the re-emergence at the heart of Europe of a powerful, unified German state that had inflicted such unspeakable suffering on them?

This has been a highly controversial question. But it is answered in a 2016 study by Joshua Shifrinson of the George Bush School of Government at Texas A&M University – hardly a pro-Putin source.

Shifrinson concludes that “archival evidence indicates that US officials repeatedly offered the Soviets informal assurances – a standard diplomatic practice – against Nato expansion during talks on German reunification throughout the spring, summer, and fall of 1990”.

He quotes from the contemporary records multiple instances of the George HW Bush administration emphatically indicating to the Russians that Nato would not expand eastwards.

Germany made the same promises. Its foreign minister, Hans-Dietrich Genscher, stated in public that there would be “no extension of Nato territory to the east, ie, nearer the borders of the Soviet Union” if the Soviets allowed reunification. He went so far as to suggest that Nato would not even operate in the old territory of East Germany.

Shifrinson’s objective conclusion from his research is that, “collectively, this evidence suggests that Russian leaders are essentially correct in claiming that US efforts to expand Nato since the 1990s violate the ‘spirit’ of the 1990 negotiations: Nato expansion nullified the assurances given to the Soviet Union in 1990.”

You don’t have to like Putin – or excuse in any way his belligerence towards Ukraine and other former Soviet countries – to acknowledge that there has been a monumental breach of faith on the part of Nato. Not only did it expand rapidly eastwards, but it has refused to give any guarantees that this expansion will stop.

 

There are legitimate arguments about the rights of the Baltic states and former Warsaw Pact countries to express their newfound independence by joining whatever military alliance they choose. They are free countries – and so is Ukraine.

But Nato did not have to accept these new members. It could have honoured the assurances given to the Soviets in 1990 and sought to create instead a mutually guaranteed neutrality for all the newly liberated states.

It didn’t do that, essentially, because Russia was so weak under Yeltsin in the 1990s. Nato could not resist the temptation to exploit that weakness by ignoring its own promises and taking the opportunity to move the alliance’s presence right up against Russia’s 

It is reasonable, surely, to believe both that this is a historic mistake and that Putin is a malignant presence on the world stage. Putin bad/Nato expansion good is not a binary we have to accept.

And that is why Ireland’s interest in maintaining an independent approach to the Ukraine crisis is not a mere shirking of responsibility. As a neutral country with a seat on the United Nations Security Council, we have a small but worthwhile presence in the grey zone of complicated reality.

Someone has to be able to oppose Putin while acknowledging that Russia’s fears have deep roots in traumatic experience and that Nato is wrong to dishonour the assurances that were meant to assuage them. It might as well be us.

19. februar 2022 uredilo bitje ana

[ana]

AdamSmit reče pred 5 minutami:

Kot vedno brez linka in konteksta. 

[Morski]

maksi reče pred 8 urami:

saj so tudi zahodni zavezniki, kdo je dal Sudete Nemčiji, kdo je kreditiral oboroževanje Nemčije

Haha kateri smešen način branjenja pakta med Naciji in SZ ko so skupaj vojško napadli, razdelili in osvojili Poljsko
 

podpis pakta je bil šok in dokončno skenslanje moźnosti, da bi se pristriglo peruti nacijem s skupno akcijo, preden so slednji začeli pohod po evropi

 

Res težko SZ in angleže in francoze leta 39 tlačiš v isti koš. Eni so napovedali vojno nacijem, drugi so z njimi zavzeli državo

[Morski]

Upam da ne bo konflikta. Sem mel idejo it v St. Petersburg poleti.